#153 | Father’s Day | It’s Been A Journey

00:00:01.34
Gareth Flavell: Have you seen there has been ah spotting of a great white shark in the Mediterranean?

00:00:12.63
Jack: I haven't seen that, Ricky, but I haven't.

00:00:15.15
Gareth Flavell: You've not seen that?

00:00:16.57
Jack: no but

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Gareth Flavell: Oh my God, Jack. Have you been living under a fucking rock? Right. A little bit of kind of a, that this history might not be correct, but I'm going to say it like I'm, you know, talking from my chest there, but great white sharks have it like historically been in the med, right? But because of overfishing and stuff like that, they,

00:00:43.16
Gareth Flavell: there's been less and less sightings of them. There hasn't been any real proper sightings since, I can't remember, because I i watch like YouTube videos and they're always going on about, could they be there?

00:00:56.50
Gareth Flavell: There's been no kind of sighting. You get a lot of fishermen, right? And they see a thing, great white shark. That's who it is. ah Who it is. ah But there's no kind of like real evidence apart from ah fishermen reporting back Now, the biggest ah great white shark caught by a fishing boat, it might not be the record now, but it was back then, was actually caught off the coast of Malta, right? So they are there, but it's always, like in modern day, it's been a bit hearsay.

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Gareth Flavell: There was a diving team removing fishing nets off a shipwreck, They don't say exactly where it is, but it's between Tunisia and Sicily.

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Gareth Flavell: And they were down there diving. And then out of the deep dark blue, they see this huge fish and they're like, what the fuck is that? And the cameraman pivots to start recording.

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Gareth Flavell: And this enormous great white shark just glides past them.

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Jack: That's what's there's that term, you know, there's there's a term for a fear of things moving, huge things moving underwater.

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Gareth Flavell: Oh, God.

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Jack: um And they sort of they use it in, you know, like back rooms. Have you seen all that stuff that the lad that makes those back rooms films and stuff?

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Gareth Flavell: do you know? I've heard about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Jack: So it's there's a lot of like copycat versions of that where they just, there's basically like, it will be somebody walking through something that looks like the sort of, you know, swimming pool you take your kids to on the weekend, right?

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Jack: A community swimming pool, but then suddenly the lights go off and then the pool suddenly, when what you thought was just a normal size swimming pool goes on forever almost.

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Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Jack: And then, do you know what I mean?

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Gareth Flavell: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Jack: It all just gets a bit dreamlike, a bit nightmare-like.

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Gareth Flavell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

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Jack: There's a phobia, that's a phobia. It it it touches on something like that. that you just say i'm not even When I think about stuff like that, it's not even the shark is going to eat me and bite me. That's obviously a concern.

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Gareth Flavell: yeah, yeah.

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Jack: It's just a thought of like a big thing moving around in the water around you.

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Gareth Flavell: yeah yeah yeah

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Jack: i ah gives me the willies, mate. Yeah.

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Gareth Flavell: ah

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Jack: yeah

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Gareth Flavell: Do you, like, that if you go into the sea, right, is there anything that plays on your mind that that there could be a shark here? Or are you like, let's not be silly. We're in Europe.

00:03:26.36
Gareth Flavell: Nothing like that has happened in years. It's normally when people are on, like, little yachts or cat marangues and they go out and then it's ah it's not even a great white. It's so it's something different, but…

00:03:38.58
Jack: Every time, mate. Do you know the other thing is, even if I'm not walking by the beach, like we go to Dorset a lot, right? And I'm walking along beach the beach like, you know, Lime Bay. It's this quiet, tranquil, quintessentially British little like seaside area. There's still that bit of me thinking…

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Jack: Just just just on the on the tips of my sort mind thinking when I'm walking along the beach, I'm just going see a killer whale come out and get me know, like they get the seals on on the beach.

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Gareth Flavell: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Jack: I can imagine, get you know, though people say, oh, they don't attack humans, but they might look at me and think, a bit of blubber on him. but Might have him, actually.

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Gareth Flavell: ah ah

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Jack: They're smart, mate.

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Gareth Flavell: ah I was, ah so I went to Cromer and I was getting up very early in the morning, six in the morning.

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Jack: They're smart.

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Gareth Flavell: Everyone in my um static caravan was asleep and i walked down to the beach, headphones in walking for an hour, you know, in um in a world of my own.

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Jack: Glorious.

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Gareth Flavell: and ah and a dog walker walked past and he said something and then used his finger just to like point and I was like what like what did he just say? And I took my earbuds out and was like, oh, morning, mate. And he's like, did you not see it?

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Gareth Flavell: And i was like, see what? And he goes, turn around. And there was an an enormous sill just on the fucking beach staring at me. And I completely missed it.

00:05:06.49
Gareth Flavell: You know, like if um if I was walking and all of a sudden it it made a dart for me, just just jaws on my on my wrist started dragging me towards the water. I would have been none the wiser, like completely oblivious to it. And these things are fucking enormous.

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Jack: Was it one of them ones with the, you know, you see some of them those with big floppy nose bits. those

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Gareth Flavell: No, it's just a regular, just a regular seal.

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Jack: Just a sea dog. A sea dog.

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Gareth Flavell: yeah ah ah you um Are you going on holiday this year anywhere?

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Jack: Nothing nothing confirmed as of yet. There's there's tenuous, tenuous conversations that… ah ah Grandpa Hamilton might be having us in Portugal, but we say we'll see.

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Gareth Flavell: Oh, okay.

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Jack: We'll see.

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Gareth Flavell: Right, right.

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Jack: We'll see.

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Gareth Flavell: I mean, you know, we'll be going in the sea there. ah I'm off to Spain, as I always am. And the moment a bit of seaweed touches my ankle, i am out that water faster than you can fucking say anything.

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Gareth Flavell: so it's like, with with these great white sharks in the meds, I'm…

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Jack: The brush of the seaweed. I know exactly what you mean.

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Gareth Flavell: he yeah Ah, it's fucking…

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Jack: What was that?

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Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yes, exactly. Yeah. grabbing at my ankles just to check.

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Jack: Even when you look down and see the seaweed, you're like, it wasn't the seaweed. It was something else.

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Gareth Flavell: Yeah. I saw it. I saw a flash of silver. Where is it?

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Jack: It was squid.

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Gareth Flavell: ah Actually, when i went to when I went to Spain last time, they had these um warnings that I don't know what had happened, but there there was a lot of warnings along the beach that there was an increased volume of jellyfish.

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Gareth Flavell: And when you're just, even when you're up to your thigh, there's fucking jellyfish everywhere.

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Jack: you

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Gareth Flavell: And then ah I was like, oh my God. And one put what at one point I was in the sea, I saw a crowd of people and they were all gathered around something. And was like, fuck, you know, what's going on there? Like, I don't know, like, someone injured themselves? Has someone caught a massive fish?

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Gareth Flavell: So ah kind of, like, my ah interest got the better of me. and i you know toddled over there and as the the group of people split uh it was my daughter in the middle and she'd got she'd got a fishing net and she'd got a massive jellyfish in there i was like uh darling can you throw that back in the sea just

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Jack: What?

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Jack: You're walking along like, is anyone being stung? Do you need me to piss on you?

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Gareth Flavell: yeah yeah

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Jack: Offering it up to anyone. Do you believe that? I was thinking, it's a but i think I think it's a pervert's back door that, I'm not going to lie. Yeah.

00:07:57.43
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, apparently um on… So, like, didn didn't… i swear Bear Grylls and… Was it Mel B? Did one of these adventure things and maybe she pissed on him, he pissed on her. Someone was pissing on each other. So you think, and it was all kind of like legit that that that's what happened.

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Gareth Flavell: So you think, yeah, okay, they wouldn't be pissing on each other if it wasn't true. But then also, I have seen scientists say that it actually doesn't do anything. Like, it's a misconception.

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Jack: so so All this time people are pissing on each other when they actually need urgent medical attention.

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Gareth Flavell: Yeah, it was just…

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Jack: It's right, we're pissed on him.

00:08:41.08
Gareth Flavell: ah ah Yeah, just saying to the lifeguard, don't worry, don't worry, I've got this.

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Jack: ah advise you

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Gareth Flavell: Just pissing all over someone.

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Jack: Why hasn't Dad woken up?

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Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

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Jack: he got stung by a jellyfish earlier. We all pissed on him.

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Gareth Flavell: ah

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Jack: Cool

00:08:58.87
Gareth Flavell: Amazing. Right. I'm going to, let's, let's, let's fucking get into this, right? Let's get into it.

00:09:04.03
Jack: one.

00:09:31.26
Gareth Flavell: Hello and welcome to Lads Anonymous. It's episode 153. I'm Ricky. He's Jack.

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Jack: Hello.

00:09:41.24
Gareth Flavell: Two exceptionally good mates. One main topic and we'll answer your life dilemmas, confessions in our feature something only you know and everything remains anonymous always. So sit back, relax and enjoy the pod. Now,

00:09:56.44
Gareth Flavell: I think everyone's just wondering where is Flav's voice. ah Flav can't be with us today. He's double booked himself. It was supposed to be a trio of people.

00:10:08.79
Gareth Flavell: um But yeah, he can't be with us. So Jack and I are doing the pod anyway. ah Who needs Flav? Who fucking needs Flav, right?

00:10:19.05
Jack: I mean, I'm not going to say it, you know.

00:10:20.44
Gareth Flavell: a bit but A bit of background.

00:10:22.57
Jack: We're all thinking it.

00:10:24.20
Gareth Flavell: So Jack, Flav and all met on a forum, a Tottenham fans forum. How long ago do you think that was?

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Jack: Honestly, i think I was 13 14.

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Gareth Flavell: Oh, fuck off, really?

00:10:40.57
Jack: so Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mate, you were pre-18, definitely.

00:10:45.62
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:10:45.91
Jack: Because what, you're only a year two older than me, aren't you, right?

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Gareth Flavell: 43.

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Gareth Flavell: ah forty three

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Jack: Yeah, I'm 41 now, so, yeah.

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Gareth Flavell: Right, okay.

00:10:53.75
Jack: um We were very young, we'll put it that way. I don't think that the the older boys didn't like us much on there, did they?

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Gareth Flavell: And then…

00:11:01.75
Gareth Flavell: No, they didn't.

00:11:02.58
Jack: No. thank They learned to love us, but, you know, we weren't we weren everyone's cup of tea at the start, I don't think.

00:11:03.98
Gareth Flavell: cheapat Little upstarts, little mud kickers.

00:11:10.87
Gareth Flavell: ah ah Yeah, and you'd been on there before. You were a more established person on there than I was. So when I came into it, you were like one of the mean boys.

00:11:23.12
Jack: Was I?

00:11:24.18
Gareth Flavell: Anything was saying, oh, who's this person piping up and all that? I was like, fucking hell, who's this geezer with space raiders as a fucking signature?

00:11:36.23
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:11:36.75
Jack: I think I was probably just jealous. i yeah new people New people on my turf, Tomcats kicking his leg up. itin inevitable Well, I'm not going back to pissing again, but here we are.

00:11:44.47
Gareth Flavell: ah ah Yeah, so we've known each other for fucking God knows how long now. ah Met up at Spurs, drinking, met up, yeah you know, outside of that.

00:11:58.52
Gareth Flavell: So we've known each other for absolute years. So yeah, that if you're wondering where Flav is, he is not with us today, but we have, a you know, one of the one of the lads in here anyway.

00:12:12.06
Jack: do Do you know what, Rick, just quickly on that, i would like you and Flav probably are two of the first people I ever met off the internet. and you know, this I think for anybody like younger than us, right it was it was a big deal in our day, wasn't it, meeting someone off the internet.

00:12:22.97
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:12:26.50
Jack: It was weird, wasn't wars i it

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Gareth Flavell: Hey, still thinking back to it, it's weird.

00:12:31.19
Jack: Yeah, it it was a weird thing to do. It's the sort of thing like I wouldn't tell like my my homemates, if you get what I mean.

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Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:12:38.43
Jack: Do you know what mean?

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Gareth Flavell: We were young as well. do you know what mean?

00:12:40.76
Jack: Yeah. Yeah, and I remember like we going to meet you too. I think I was getting like a bus to Crouch End or something like that to meet you before the Spurs game.

00:12:47.26
Gareth Flavell: yeah

00:12:48.71
Jack: Brick it myself.

00:12:50.10
Gareth Flavell: yeah

00:12:50.13
Jack: Because in my head, of I've got years of like do i mean tabloid propaganda. If you meet a person off the internet, they're going to drag you into a van and bum you.

00:12:57.43
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. yeah yeah

00:13:00.24
Jack: you know what I like that That is what's going to happen.

00:13:03.85
Gareth Flavell: They're going to spike your drink and they are going to bum you.

00:13:04.98
Jack: yeah but like Bum you into oblivion.

00:13:10.30
Gareth Flavell: ah Yeah.

00:13:10.39
Jack: And that's it.

00:13:12.02
Gareth Flavell: Fortunately, that didn't happen. um But yeah, we've were ah all ah stayed friends for many years after that. um We have a feature on this pod, right? It's called don't listen where the audience send in a voice note or audio clip to us.

00:13:29.43
Gareth Flavell: We have no idea what it is. we One stipulation is, like, let's not be homophobic, racist, all of that, but you can send them whatever.

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Jack: <unk>s That's big of you.

00:13:41.11
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, I know, i know.

00:13:41.18
Jack: That's big of you.

00:13:43.45
Gareth Flavell: And they can have their chance to be on a podcast in voice note form. ah This is the last one that we have in the mailbag, so…

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Gareth Flavell: If there's anyone else that wants to get involved, send in your voice note to ladsanonpod at gmail.com and we will play it. um This was sent in last week and you're going to hear it now, Jack. Okay.

00:14:24.28
Gareth Flavell: Oh.

00:14:54.26
Gareth Flavell: Right. Okay. Well, thank you.

00:14:55.89
Jack: It's actually a bit of a banger, to be fair.

00:14:58.07
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, it is. So we've had two, the last two have been people sending in, uh, their own kind of music that they produce. I assume you've produced that. That's the way you've sent it in. So thank you for that. And then the two previous to that were people recording themselves having a turnout,

00:15:16.15
Gareth Flavell: which as you can imagine, the sound of that, uh, is when you're not expecting it is, you know, it's not ideal to be honest with you. Uh, one of them did have a bit of role play in it.

00:15:28.37
Gareth Flavell: Uh, you're thinking what the hell is going on here? And then you just hear the slurry that, uh, falls out this gentleman. ah So, right. we So we've had, stop sending in your, your promoting your music. All right.

00:15:42.07
Gareth Flavell: Well, I want, I want actual voice notes. So send those in. If not, you know, this feature would probably have run its course. Now let's get into it.

00:15:54.36
Gareth Flavell: Do you know what the topic for this podcast is about Jack?

00:16:00.98
Jack: It's Father's Day, Ricky.

00:16:02.46
Gareth Flavell: It is Father's Day. Well done. i mean, ah it'd be mental if you didn't know that. But, um yeah, we're talking about shots today, aren't we?

00:16:08.22
Jack: Just coming in blind. Isn't

00:16:11.62
Gareth Flavell: That's what you started with.

00:16:12.82
Jack: that Flav's thing?

00:16:16.73
Gareth Flavell: So

00:16:16.83
Jack: I've got his slippers on, you know?

00:16:18.20
Gareth Flavell: yeah ah ah we are, well, it's Father's Day on Sunday, the 21st of June. And did you know that Father's Day is both the same in the US s and the UK, but Mother's Day is different?

00:16:36.30
Jack: That's weird. I always thought mothering Sunday was like a religious thing. I thought it was an actual Bible day.

00:16:41.46
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. So it's, yeah, it well, it's like some kind of a medieval tradition that we've kept on.

00:16:47.73
Jack: Okay.

00:16:49.06
Gareth Flavell: And then America did something different with their Mother's Day. And then…

00:16:55.22
Jack: they they always They always have to, don't they? you what mean?

00:16:58.07
Gareth Flavell: but then i I believe they started Father's Day and we're like, we'll have a bit of that. So, you know, we've, ah we've swapped over there, but so if you're listening to this, right, you and you're a normie, you're listening to this on the Monday with everyone else. You've got essentially six days to get your Father's Day presents. Patrons, you're getting this today, Friday. So you've got more time on your hands. All right.

00:17:25.82
Gareth Flavell: So we've helped you out there. I think we better start with um our own fathers, really. the The weird thing about this for me is I know my dad will be listening to this.

00:17:40.85
Gareth Flavell: So have to I've got to tread carefully, but I will still tread the boards of honesty, shall we say.

00:17:42.98
Jack: Okay.

00:17:48.85
Gareth Flavell: um i don't think your father will be listening to this, but…

00:17:53.08
Jack: I don't think he's ever listened to a single podcast ever done.

00:17:56.92
Gareth Flavell: you immigration

00:17:57.62
Jack: Yeah. You're poking. We're starting this one ah at this point already, Rick, are we?

00:18:07.58
Jack: Why don't you love me? Yeah.

00:18:08.82
Gareth Flavell: ah wait like So with your dad, most people, right? yeah Everyone has them on ah a pedestal, you know, their hero and and all that stuff.

00:18:25.30
Gareth Flavell: Do you have a time of when you kind of realized that he was just a man? that time of like, oh fuck, but he's just my dad.

00:18:39.13
Jack: Definitely. Because I would say like growing up, I was I was probably sort of, you know, into my like early teenage years to mid teenage years.

00:18:50.30
Jack: I was actually one I had a fairly sort of like not great relationship with my dad. I think ours was kind of,

00:18:57.08
Gareth Flavell: Right. Okay.

00:18:58.26
Jack: we sort of bickered a lot and didn't get on an awful lot, really.

00:19:01.60
Gareth Flavell: Mmm.

00:19:01.98
Jack: you know what mean?

00:19:02.23
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:02.54
Jack: So like when i when I was a little kid, like I've got very, very fond memories. I'm not doing like ah my dad was horrible horrible. When I was a little kid, like my dad was always very like sweet. he was always very nice and yeah got me into films and used to sort of tell stories and all that type of stuff.

00:19:17.91
Jack: But like I don't know. i don't know if it's something about like the transition to some people hear don't like the idea of their kids getting older. Do you know what mean? In a way sort of thing.

00:19:27.30
Gareth Flavell: Oh, right. Okay.

00:19:28.31
Jack: And so I think he always struggled with that a bit. So we sort of when I was like a teenager, we I was never like difficult, really, but I was probably not the easiest.

00:19:38.46
Jack: You know my personality type. I think anybody it's gets me.

00:19:41.08
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:42.16
Jack: know i'm I'm not a shrinking violet, if you like. um

00:19:45.73
Gareth Flavell: No.

00:19:46.90
Jack: And I reckon probably i sort of had this moment

00:19:48.60
Gareth Flavell: You wear your heart on your sleeve as well.

00:19:50.10
Jack: yeah yeah exactly and and and and so i was probably i think probably like 16 or something and when you're like really sort of really getting into smoking weed quite a lot back then and like probably back in our day like like strong skunk that we shouldn't have been smoking at like 17 years old where your brain is still forming you know what mean

00:19:51.00
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:20:02.65
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:20:08.60
Gareth Flavell: yeah

00:20:11.80
Gareth Flavell: yeah

00:20:13.82
Jack: And I just think it was just one those evenings where like my um where one of my mates had said that, like you know he'd I can't remember what it was he'd done. He'd gone out somewhere and he'd gotten really like pissed or something on like a weeknight.

00:20:27.41
Jack: And he ended up getting stranded like quite far from home, missed the last bus. This is back in the days when there were 24 seven buses running and stuff. And he had to find like a pay phone somewhere like miles from home and call home and just be like, dad, can you come and get me?

00:20:35.67
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:20:43.09
Jack: And his dad came and got him and like, he was like, well he's going to fucking bollock me. He's going to go mental at me and stuff.

00:20:48.85
Gareth Flavell: yeah

00:20:49.33
Jack: And he said his dad was just like, you can't do this to me, son. I've got work tomorrow. You know, and like you can't do this to me on a work night. I've got, you don't know how much I've got going on.

00:21:00.56
Jack: Right. Like I'll always come and get you, but, but don't do this to me.

00:21:00.95
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:21:04.22
Jack: And he was like, he said it was the first time he'd seen his dad be like, human being and be a bit like, oh shit.

00:21:10.30
Gareth Flavell: Right.

00:21:11.57
Jack: But like we all sort of, a few of us around him, like by sort of osmosis, we're all suddenly like, oh shit. Like it's suddenly, cause you know, you've, you're in that mode of like having had a, had a smoke, your mind's open to like new concepts and stuff.

00:21:20.66
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah.

00:21:27.21
Jack: And suddenly that thought of like, you know, when I like worry about doing my homework or something like that, my dad's worried about like us not being destitute.

00:21:27.26
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:21:34.01
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah.

00:21:37.91
Gareth Flavell: yeah

00:21:38.02
Jack: Do you know what I mean? You're suddenly like, oh, maybe he has got stuff going on. Because you sort take it for given we've got a house, we've got food in the fridge. That's just what happens, you know?

00:21:47.91
Gareth Flavell: yay Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. yeah

00:21:49.86
Jack: Maybe that's sort of showing my own sort of spoil upbringing or whatever, my own level of privilege, I guess. But… you just kind of take that stuff as a given as a normal. um But then get into that sort of age where you've got a Saturday job and you're having to pay for your own stuff and all this sort of thing, getting that understanding of the value of money and then suddenly thinking that times a million for what it is your parents are dealing with.

00:22:12.44
Gareth Flavell: yeah

00:22:13.96
Jack: Then I think it'd be, it's that sort of time in that, you know?

00:22:17.37
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, ah like, my my first, cut like, because my parents split up when I was five or six.

00:22:28.18
Gareth Flavell: So I'd only go and see my dad at the weekend. And it wasn't like every weekend. It wasn't like I'm with mum from Monday to Friday, dad Saturday, Saturday and Sunday. It was very sporadic.

00:22:43.19
Gareth Flavell: So I never kind of knew when I would be going around to his or anything like that. um And then I would have a call of, oh, you're going to your dad's on Saturday, Saturday night or Saturday you know saturday day or whatever it is. And I'd be leading up to that. or It it will only ever been, you know, football, fishing, karate, just doing activities together and coming home.

00:23:10.55
Gareth Flavell: But when… um he used to pick me up. Something would always come up and it would be hours later of me just sitting on the sofa waiting for him or he'd have to cancel.

00:23:25.53
Gareth Flavell: And it was one of those times that that's when I kind of kicked in of, um, he's just like this, you know, he, he's my dad, but also he has,

00:23:39.51
Gareth Flavell: ah what's the word I'm looking for? Not frailty, but, um you know, he's he's not perfect. But, and you always have put your parents on a pedestal. And I, for for years, I, it's not like I never got over, well, actually, yeah, for years, i i you know, I never got over that. I couldn't understand why, but it's until,

00:24:08.08
Gareth Flavell: it's not until a of me becoming a parent and B of just being an adult and understanding relationships and understanding environments and understanding, you know, I'm looking at it from my point of view, you know, if someone hasn't turned up to pick you up when they said they would, I'm disappointed.

00:24:20.31
Jack: Yeah.

00:24:29.27
Gareth Flavell: And and from his point of view, and now I can look back on it is, you know, my parents out when I was five, six. I don't think, but I'm absolutely certain my dad didn't want it to his, you know, um his relationship to end with my mom and for them to get a divorce and stuff like that. So he was still incredibly hurt. I think he worked a lot as well. He always had two jobs. um We, you know, we never went without and stuff like that.

00:24:59.29
Gareth Flavell: But it's only now that um I can kind of look back and not be frustrated or angry or anything like that because he had his own stuff going on um and his own emotions that he had to kind of keep in check with. and But it is one of those things. I think that's the first time that I was like,

00:25:24.47
Gareth Flavell: had that realization of, ah you know, your father's fallible, that that type of thing.

00:25:30.65
Jack: But it's, you know, it shows a great level of emotional maturity and just, you know, don't know, credit to you as a person, Rick, that you can view it in that way because I think that's, ah you know i guess that's what we're going on to but i think that's one of those things that you've always got to kind of keep in your mind in that you can only tell your kids so much right you just have to wait and hope that life takes them on a path where they will have enough experiences they will have enough understanding of life and the world to realize that things aren't always binary things aren't always straightforward um

00:26:03.74
Gareth Flavell: o

00:26:07.45
Jack: And but you like I it's the whole you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink kind of thing, right? you know

00:26:13.24
Gareth Flavell: ya Yeah, yeah,

00:26:14.49
Jack: People have to come to those conclusions. Ultimately, if you want a like a valuable conclusion to be drawn from somebody, they have to draw it themselves. um And in fact, you've done that. Obviously, I'm sure your dad is very happy with.

00:26:27.10
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, I mean, I could have always… um And I think, like you know, a lot of people can be, um, bitter about those things and hold on to that hurt and that pain and, uh, and, um, cut kind of let it manifest and let it be that kind of thing of, I don't know.

00:26:50.58
Gareth Flavell: it creates a new narrative for you about, uh, your, your dad or whatever it is, or you can kind of try and flip it on its head and understand it. But, Yeah, it is one of those things that I've kind of, um I don't know, just ah just as a dad that you look into things um from a different perspective. And I just want to caveat this pod, by the way.

00:27:14.04
Gareth Flavell: i forgot to do it at the top of the show, that when ah Jack and I are speaking about dads, and father's day this is all encompassing as in guardians carers dads stepdads anyone like even if you have a nephew and your nephew is kind of like they look at you as to a role model that this you know this podcast will be uh for you as well um let's go into a bit more of the um the kind of fun stuff so

00:27:49.14
Gareth Flavell: before we get into us becoming fathers, wanted to know a bit more about your dad. um Like what is the most dad thing that you can remember about yours?

00:28:03.90
Gareth Flavell: Now I'll, I'll start us off if you need time to think.

00:28:07.67
Jack: What?

00:28:08.90
Gareth Flavell: So like I already mentioned it, right? So like dad's, I don't know if it it's just dads when I was younger, but dads always seem to be still sporty, right? My dad played football in a football team. He took me to football. We went fishing together.

00:28:25.66
Gareth Flavell: ah He did karate. ah Like, funnily enough, I think my dad is like a a second Dan black belt in karate.

00:28:34.74
Jack: what

00:28:34.74
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, I know. He used to run his own karate fucking club as well. ah Yeah, know.

00:28:40.63
Jack: Sick.

00:28:41.92
Gareth Flavell: So he can f throw hands.

00:28:43.54
Jack: Did you ever use that at school or anything? Would it be like if someone knew someone mugs you off, you're like, I'll get dad down.

00:28:45.59
Gareth Flavell: Oh yeah, of course, of course. yeah Yeah, absolutely.

00:28:48.41
Jack: yeah okay

00:28:52.85
Jack: Knowing in the back your head, like, I'm never getting my dad down. yeah

00:28:56.13
Gareth Flavell: My dad has to beat up a 14 year old.

00:28:57.82
Jack: yeah Black belt.

00:29:02.20
Gareth Flavell: ah

00:29:03.29
Jack: Black belt beating up a literal child.

00:29:05.27
Gareth Flavell: ah ah ah but One of the things that always stands out to me about my old man that, and a lot of my family members will tell you this, that where it's it's the most, it's that, that realization of that he's ah a dad and doing dad things was he used to wear a bum bag.

00:29:29.40
Jack: ah

00:29:29.53
Gareth Flavell: Right. And I'm not talking,

00:29:30.90
Jack: This is what, 80s, 90s, right? Yeah. Yeah.

00:29:32.79
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:29:33.27
Jack: yeah

00:29:33.55
Gareth Flavell: yeah etio This is pure early 90s. I'm not talking about just any odd bum bag, Jack. Not even one of these kind of like a wearing over the shoulder when you're on holiday, ah like a shot ah or anything like that.

00:29:50.10
Gareth Flavell: This was a brown leather big bum bag. And he used to put his wallet in there, car keys, like stamps, a dress book, ah quite like he had everything in there. So it was a big bulging bum bag.

00:30:08.66
Gareth Flavell: And when ah like when my dad would meet me at football or come to collect me from school, whatever, my mates would be like, has your dad got a bum bag on? Yeah.

00:30:19.38
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, he has. Yeah. And I remember this one time as well, that the bum bag, the belt, because there was so much pressure on this fucking bum bag and what he used to put in there ah that the actual belt snapped.

00:30:31.14
Gareth Flavell: And I thought, brilliant, right? That's that that's the end of that.

00:30:34.71
Jack: the bum bag era is done is that is very dad as well that is very dad yeah yeah

00:30:35.06
Gareth Flavell: ah The bum bag here is gone. And now he turned up, he just put a safety pin in it. Didn't give a fuck. yeah yeah yeah you'd have to get yeah that is that is very dad isn't it did you read did your dad have a ever have any of those things that um you're like oh fucking hell that is that is very dadsy

00:30:58.17
Jack: sort of in a in a slightly different way i i would say like one of his sort of dad things, I guess, to happen in terms of like something. I mean, there's there's one, there's there's one funny one, which is like, obviously quite dad.

00:31:10.90
Jack: When ah it was like a summer holiday once, I think it was, we're in France somewhere. And we're all in this pool. And he was just being a dad like, do you have your towels?

00:31:21.01
Jack: Do you have the sun cream? Do you have this? Do you have that? And he's pottering around on the side and he's got the towels and the sun cream and all this.

00:31:23.26
Gareth Flavell: Oh,

00:31:27.41
Jack: And he just fully clothed, walked into the pool. he didn't realize, yeah, yeah.

00:31:30.97
Gareth Flavell: ah ah yeah!

00:31:32.31
Jack: We've got a handful of towels and all that, yeah, yeah. So he's done the classic, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:31:34.62
Gareth Flavell: yeah amazing

00:31:37.35
Jack: yeah Which obviously just diffused the situation, but it was him running about. But another sort of good, and I guess this is sort of maybe like along the lines of what you were saying before, the human side of things.

00:31:49.98
Jack: My dad is like, um I think like but when he met my mum and before he met my mum, he was a bit more of like a lad. I think he was a bit of a, you know, he liked you like to booze up and, you know, I don't know.

00:31:59.38
Gareth Flavell: Was it, do think, was he a shaggar?

00:32:03.73
Jack: you know what I mean? I've never… Do you what I mean? maybe we Maybe we'll ask him Father's Day. So, you know, between us.

00:32:12.60
Gareth Flavell: ah

00:32:12.85
Jack: um But, i yeah, I think he was a bit of a lad, and I think he was like, know, I think he liked a a bevy. um And I'm assuming it was one of those things that, like, you know, when him and my mum got together, she was probably like, you know, you need to change your ways a bit kind of thing. So…

00:32:28.82
Jack: I've always known him as somebody that like, he has a glass of wine here and there, but I've never, do you know what? I've never really seen my dad drink beer much, stuff like that. He's never really drunk beer.

00:32:37.82
Gareth Flavell: Right, okay.

00:32:39.18
Jack: I've never really seen Now he's getting a bit older. He has a whiskey and stuff every now and again, but… sort of when we were kids, I never really saw him drink spirits or anything like that. But I remember one afternoon, right, we were up in my mum's from Yorkshire, and we were up in Yorkshire meeting um one of my mum's old school friends, one of our old best mates. And she had this at the time, she had this husband, Chris, who you know he's gone now he's passed away but Chris was like uh he was he was a a Yorkshireman he was like a Jack the Lad Yorkshireman man that like you know can do stuff big hands do you what mean need a shelf fitting up I'll fucking do that do mean like he's that that type of fella no hesitation what mean

00:33:11.35
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah

00:33:14.74
Gareth Flavell: yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do have that thing of like, ah all Northerners are like that, and all Southerners are like, I'll pay someone to do that for me.

00:33:27.35
Jack: yeah yeah Yeah, exactly.

00:33:30.77
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:33:31.84
Jack: i'll I'll find the man on task, Rabbit. Do you need a cup of tea, mate?

00:33:36.38
Gareth Flavell: ah ah

00:33:36.52
Jack: Yeah.

00:33:40.02
Jack: um So, yeah, that that we all we all go up there for the afternoon. And Chris has said to my dad's like at some point along the line, you know, at this point I'm 10, so I don't really know what's going on.

00:33:53.35
Jack: I just enjoyed it. I remember back then he used Chris used to have like an air rifle and he'd set up like little cans and stuff and I'd shoot the cans. So I was set all afternoon.

00:34:02.07
Gareth Flavell: I love Chris.

00:34:02.87
Jack: Yeah, do you know what mean?

00:34:03.03
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. Yeah.

00:34:03.79
Jack: When you're 10, you're fucking set all afternoon if someone's got that for you.

00:34:06.04
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:34:07.08
Jack: So I was sort of playing around with that. And I think at some point he'd said to my dad, I've got a load of light homebrewded something's like like scrumpy cider some type of ale or something.

00:34:16.30
Gareth Flavell: Oh, yeah.

00:34:20.69
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:34:20.82
Jack: I've brewed all this shit. Come on, like leave, leave the women to it.

00:34:25.34
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. Yeah. yeah

00:34:26.09
Jack: He's got his air rifle. He's playing with that. Come on.

00:34:28.12
Gareth Flavell: yeah

00:34:28.71
Jack: Right. And so I think it must've been one of those moments like when I was focusing on the road in my dad's head where he was like, You know what? Yeah, I am. i' got I've got this like big Yorkshire man here that wants to give me his own bruise.

00:34:37.08
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:34:40.92
Jack: I can't back down from that.

00:34:42.46
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:34:44.18
Jack: And then so he sort of disappeared for a while. And <unk> this is the first time I've ever seen my dad drunk. He just came like, yeah, after an hour or so. i think my mum and her friend Sue are like, what what are they up to? are the lads up to sort of thing?

00:34:58.26
Jack: And we all go around the corner and they're just outside having a roll up. you know mean? Or like, bleh.

00:35:03.83
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:35:05.10
Jack: girls are you doing? Yeah, and you can tell my dad's in that sort of zone of like, he's doubling down on it because he's pissed and scared. But he's like laughing about the situation and all that type of thing.

00:35:13.34
Gareth Flavell: yeah

00:35:15.99
Jack: And so they carry on drinking always and they end up there just battered light and it's they They're almost like, you know, like in Jaws when they're under their boat and they're all like singing sea shanties and they're all pissed up.

00:35:23.61
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:35:25.37
Jack: It's that type of vibe kind of thing with my mum looking thoroughly unimpressed as I'm there 10 years old. My sister's there in the car seat, probably four five years old sort of thing.

00:35:34.09
Gareth Flavell: Oh, God.

00:35:34.61
Jack: As we're driving back through all these old Yorkshire country roads, to my dad's all like, oh, what's wrong? What are you annoyed about? Anyway, we get to this point where he's just like, stop the car, stop the car.

00:35:46.10
Jack: And he has to jump out on the bank of this like country road into a bed of stinging nettles.

00:35:46.30
Gareth Flavell: i'll go

00:35:51.62
Jack: And he's just projectile vomiting everywhere.

00:35:54.58
Gareth Flavell: Oh, yes.

00:35:54.70
Jack: And yeah, spends the afternoon licking his wounds. Like he got put to bed and I think he was very, very sheepish the next day.

00:36:01.17
Gareth Flavell: Oh, bless him.

00:36:03.13
Jack: But that's one sort of enduring memories of like, again, like my dad sort of just letting loose a bit and getting in trouble. And yeah, it's quite funny though, you know?

00:36:11.35
Gareth Flavell: with ah with with With that in mind, ah was that the exact moment that you like…

00:36:18.85
Gareth Flavell: I want to be a dad. ah can't, I can't wait to be a dad. This has inspired me. is it was Was there a moment in your life that you were like, when you were younger or anything like that, that where you thought about becoming a dad or that you, you know,

00:36:36.79
Gareth Flavell: We are, like especially well myself, the traditional of finding a wife, settling down, having a kid, ah having a house, having a dog, all of that stuff.

00:36:44.24
Jack: Mm-hmm.

00:36:49.78
Gareth Flavell: were you were Were you kind of are brought up that way and ah or did you kind of, um we were you on the fence of having a you know having a kid and stuff like that?

00:37:00.08
Jack: I think when you're younger, you always sort of think, that's just what I will do. in it you know You just sort of think, I will one day find our wife and have children, and that's the circle of life, and that's what you do.

00:37:06.00
Gareth Flavell: Hmm.

00:37:13.28
Jack: But I think probably when I got into like my late teens, early 20s, um I sort of i went into a bit of a zone of – just sort of thinking, yeah, I think just like in a way that lots of people do, you know you sort of sort of struggle with your mental health a bit in your 20s, your identity, trying to sort of figure out who you are, what's going on, how much, I think, you know, the other context is as well, like, you know, we were in our late teens, going into our early 20s, when like the 2008 economic collapse happened, and nobody's getting jobs, nobody's really earning anything.

00:37:49.94
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:37:50.36
Jack: And so all that sort wrapped up, I just kind of got into a place where I probably just got quite down on myself and down on like my potential and my ability to be able to be a good person, a good father, a good partner to somebody, i think.

00:38:06.36
Gareth Flavell: Hmm.

00:38:06.98
Jack: And so I think I probably just settled in quite ah a firm place in my head that like, actually, I don't think I want to be a father.

00:38:07.19
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah,

00:38:14.78
Jack: I actually don't think I'd be able to to handle it. I don't think I'd be able to deal with the pressure of it, all that sort of thing.

00:38:20.75
Gareth Flavell: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:38:22.55
Jack: um and when i met charlotte like you know i was quite you know you know when you when you you know in your sort of mid-20s you're getting towards 30 and stuff you do start to have those conversations it's not like i want to have a kid now but it's like do you think it's something you're going to want to do um and i remember being quite honest with her being like i can't tell you that i honestly ever ever want to do that um i don't know because i think she'd always been somebody that very much wanted to have a family um

00:38:49.78
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:38:51.42
Jack: And, you know, was didn't hide from that. And I didn't want to string her along at any point, you know, because like you say, it's an important part of your life where you're like, you're a kind of crossroads.

00:39:01.66
Gareth Flavell: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:39:01.86
Jack: um And so, yeah, I was like, you know I can't ever promise you that I ever will want to. But I think if I'm probably being honest in myself, there's probably always a little voice in the back of my head somewhere that was like, I think I do though.

00:39:15.71
Jack: I think I would like to

00:39:17.14
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:39:18.49
Jack: Because when you get outside of the circumstantial stuff, when you step aside to like your worries and your yeah anxieties or whatever you're sort of depressed about, I think there's another part of you, at least, well, I'm not going to project to, at least to myself, I think there's another part of me, like maybe a more, I don't wanna say authentic self, but maybe part of myself, my yeah if you wanna call it a soul, I don't know, that's separated from, like I say, circumstance, where I've always sort of thought,

00:39:47.91
Jack: I think I'd be quite a good dad. Do you know what mean?

00:39:49.59
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:39:50.02
Jack: I've i've always sort of, you know, I'm quite a jolly character. I'm a storyteller.

00:39:53.02
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:39:54.09
Jack: I'm whatever, you know, like I sort of feel like, I feel like I would enjoy it.

00:39:55.29
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:39:58.69
Jack: And I feel like I would like, I have the ability if I can fucking sort myself out a bit, make somebody happy. Um, so I think that, yeah, I think I did. I think I did a sort of arrive at a point where, yeah, I wanted to do it. Um,

00:40:15.32
Jack: But i mean, what about you? Because you had kids a lot earlier, didn't you?

00:40:18.62
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, I did. So when I was growing up, a fair few of my mates had kids early, marriage and kids early. It was that, you know, in Milton Keynes, born here, and live here, die here, that kind of, that's what I grew up with. Yeah.

00:40:34.39
Gareth Flavell: And a lot of people were getting married early, having kids. And like I think they're like 23 or something like that. And and i will ah yeah ah I didn't want that. I really didn't want to do that.

00:40:45.75
Gareth Flavell: um But and and then at 23, I actually moved down to London. Yeah.

00:40:54.14
Gareth Flavell: So it wasn't really in my mind. The earliest memory that I have is my sister, she fell pregnant fairly early. She was, i think she was 19.

00:41:08.28
Gareth Flavell: So I remember I was ah maybe would have been 16 at the time and my nephew Tate. And I remember there was a point where I was sitting on a wicker chair while he was sleeping in my arms and I could smell that fresh baby smell thinking I want one of these when I'm older right I um really do want one of these when I'm older and that I was 16 at the time but it wasn't like one of those things that I want one now so I'd always kind of thought about it but then i think what

00:41:44.34
Gareth Flavell: and I don't know if this is, you know, if I'm right saying this about most people, but it certainly felt like it felt like it to me that if I ever verbalized that I wanted children, it's kind of like I'm putting myself out there as in, um what if I can't have children?

00:42:05.66
Gareth Flavell: Or what if my partner can't have children? Or, you know, whatever reason… for whatever reason i've not been blessed with it whatever um so then you kind of like when people ask you about do you want children and stuff like that oh you know if it happens not really i'm having the time my life for living in london living that london life you know out on the beers um so it wasn't kind of like um

00:42:26.45
Jack: Yeah.

00:42:37.73
Gareth Flavell: a thing where I verbally and projected within my circle of mates whatever that, yes, I want children. um but there was part of but that part of my head from thinking back when I was 16 that I absolutely knew I did, but I didn't want to say really like come out and say it.

00:42:56.73
Gareth Flavell: Um, you know, I've been with my missus for fucking God knows how long. And, There was a part where when we did have discussions about having kids, there was a bit that where where we were both kind of like 29 to 33 would be our crossroads. It would be the part where we would start to have a discussion about having kids.

00:43:29.02
Gareth Flavell: Um, we got engaged at 29 and through the, um, kind of getting caught up in the moment of being, you know, newly engaged within three months, um, she was pregnant.

00:43:47.45
Gareth Flavell: So know, I know that's terrible in it.

00:43:48.22
Jack: You little pig.

00:43:52.50
Jack: You little shagger.

00:43:53.50
Gareth Flavell: Terrible shagga.

00:43:53.74
Jack: That is it. Getting all excited.

00:43:55.58
Gareth Flavell: and I know.

00:43:55.80
Jack: and yeah

00:43:56.58
Gareth Flavell: Fuck it. We're getting married. I'll leave it in there. Go on. That's all ah But yeah, but so but by 29, I think i had become a dad at 29. But thinking about that now, 29, is that like… That's not that young, is it? Although it feels like it because we're at 40s now.

00:44:21.20
Jack: It's interesting, isn't it?

00:44:21.42
Gareth Flavell: It's 29. Yeah, like that's the thing. I don't know whether… what what is young and what is old? they There used to be this kind of um preconception of, like I said with my mates, that marriage young, have the kids young, and then that's that's life, isn't it? that's that Those box ticks. But I think we live in a um a society now where it's – where it's much more widely accepted that that that age range and bracket of when to have children isn't kind of like oh you're this old your oh you're having kids at this age because there are people like in their 50s still having kids and it's like okay right that is as long as for me as long as everyone is healthy and it's in the right environment and fine you know i don't ah there i don't care really do you know what mean

00:45:14.15
Jack: I think, yeah it's it's interesting because I think my mum was… yeah This is the 80s, isn't it? So my mum was 24, 25 when she had me, which sounds wild to me now, the thought of somebody having…

00:45:25.32
Gareth Flavell: Oh mate, it's fucking mental.

00:45:25.81
Jack: But that was but that was like that was sort of standard, wasn't it?

00:45:29.82
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:45:30.03
Jack: like Yeah. And I think my dad was about 30, and I think at that point, he was considered quite an old dad. Do you know what Like having a kid at 30.

00:45:40.41
Gareth Flavell: Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:45:41.10
Jack: Yeah. um So like you say, just to to the reference point, yeah, I mean… maybe in 2026 someone having a baby at 29 i don't think it's it's old no i mean i don't think it's like super young but it's on the younger side isn't it really it's just the way the work the way the world's changed as well though you know like the the the sort of the you the consideration of living of trying to pay rent trying to pay bills on one income is a lot more difficult now

00:45:53.59
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:45:56.63
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know, actually. Yeah.

00:46:11.80
Gareth Flavell: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think, yeah, but where people would want to secure a house or something like that, it takes a lot longer to get on the ladder and a lot harder and progressing one's career and stuff like that.

00:46:24.24
Gareth Flavell: You want to lock those down before you kind of consider having a child and stuff like that.

00:46:28.07
Jack: Okay.

00:46:30.10
Gareth Flavell: So with you, were you kind of like did did like, did you get married and then straight after you're like, right, rub your hands together let's let's have a crack did you like you're saying because you said with Charlotte that you had said to her that I I can't guarantee to you that I'm gonna give you a child or this is what ah you know we'll get together and we'll have a child straight away how like how was it for you

00:47:00.89
Jack: I think like you say, I think it's it's around the time of proposing, of the lead up to a wedding, of getting married, all that sort of thing. um Getting engaged in the first place is you do your own thinking, right? And there's that part of me that's like, you know,

00:47:19.74
Jack: this is a person want to be with for the rest of my life.

00:47:22.07
Gareth Flavell: m

00:47:22.42
Jack: um You know, love her unconditionally. Of course, like, you know, if there's a, I don't know, it's it's it's hard to talk about this stuff without being too like corny about it, but it's that sense of like,

00:47:35.93
Jack: you want in that love to continue. um it's ah It's a physical, and it's not to say that, you know, we'll get onto these conversations because I don't want people who don't have kids or haven't been able to or haven't wanted to have kids to feel that like I'm making some point that if you don't have kids, your love isn't complete or something.

00:47:38.39
Gareth Flavell: Yes, yeah.

00:47:55.07
Jack: I don't feel that.

00:47:55.83
Gareth Flavell: Yeah,

00:47:56.71
Jack: it's just a different continuation of that and it's a way to to channel that i guess it's just i don't know i i don't know if it's primal i guess it is primal it's kind of probably coded in our in our dna and all that sort of thing but there's just a sort of intangible feeling of like yeah just uh i think on a really basic level what would a little person that is

00:48:07.16
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:48:19.80
Jack: part of both of us look like? What would they be like? You know?

00:48:22.49
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah.

00:48:23.04
Jack: It's sort of exciting in that way. And I think… that kind of came around and i think yeah ah but the the funny thing is like after so when we actually did get married we were sort of like yeah we we'll probably have kids and i think you know other people are around the thing but it was actually at that point after like the lead up to the wedding all the like pressures and you know without going into it too much like you know on charlotte's side like her parents aren't together and stuff and there's family politics and the family dynamic at play with the wider circle that made our sort of wedding and stuff a little bit stressful in places.

00:48:54.62
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:49:00.38
Jack: And I think,

00:49:00.84
Gareth Flavell: In the corporate world would say there was a lot of moving parts.

00:49:03.96
Jack: yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. um And so ah actually after we got married, Charlotte was the one that was like, i actually, no, do you know what? Let's just, let's just have a hand, let's the handbrake on all this life stuff for a bit.

00:49:17.53
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:49:18.93
Jack: Let's go on honeymoon and let's just maybe enjoy the next year of our lives being married and think about the future down that year. But let's not go straight into having kids.

00:49:26.52
Gareth Flavell: Right. Okay. Nice.

00:49:28.43
Jack: And I was kind of like, yeah, fine, fair enough.

00:49:28.73
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. yeah yeah

00:49:30.75
Jack: And then I think just naturally there's there's never a point where you're like, right, at this point now we are going to…

00:49:36.31
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:49:37.59
Jack: try and do it but i think just sort of maybe even subconsciously we were both like well yeah okay i think the next step will be for you know for this to happen um and then nothing happens you know do you want to do you want to go into this sort of stuff or yeah

00:49:53.14
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. Okay.

00:49:58.23
Gareth Flavell: yeah yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're if you're ah happy to have a chat about it. So um you were you had made the decision to like have children and and and just kind of just see where the land lays and um you know, try to get pregnant.

00:50:18.04
Gareth Flavell: And then as you as you just said, nothing nothing happens.

00:50:21.75
Jack: No. um And, you know, at first you're kind of like, okay, well, you know, you're not really, you're not paying attention to the science at first, if you like. It's just, it's very, you know, it's just the standard, the normal stuff that people do, right? You know, um we all know how babies are made. So you just, you crack on in that respect. And then when nothing happens for…

00:50:46.18
Jack: a few months, then you're like, okay, well, maybe we need to be a bit more scientific about it. There's ovulation windows. There's things like cutting back on certain things, caffeine or this or that.

00:50:53.40
Gareth Flavell: Right.

00:50:59.19
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. Alcohol and that yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:51:00.86
Jack: Exactly. Exactly.

00:51:01.75
Gareth Flavell: Okay.

00:51:02.22
Jack: So, so these things start to happen.

00:51:02.71
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:51:03.82
Jack: You start paying more attention to routine, to not drinking, to not having caffeine, blah, blah, blah, blah. blah And then,

00:51:14.81
Jack: you suddenly, I mean, look, some people might be more like on top of this type of stuff or not, but I think there was probably a time where we would every, it felt like every month that passed, there would be a new thing that we would look to as in like, and there's a lot of, you know, there's ah as there is with any sort of health guidance now, right?

00:51:39.77
Jack: one week it can be actually this type of shampoo is known to not be very helpful if you're doing this because of certain fumes actually this type of nail varnish this thing this that this yeah

00:51:47.54
Gareth Flavell: Yes.

00:51:51.00
Gareth Flavell: ah Yeah, like I had ah a mate going through the exact same thing um and he was telling me about that he has to wear a different deodorant.

00:52:00.34
Jack: yeah exactly

00:52:00.47
Gareth Flavell: because of ah of these different things that could be blockers into conceiving. I was like, what? He was like, yeah, I have to do i have to eat this and not wear that deodorant and not do this and not have a beer at the football. And I was like, fuck.

00:52:15.48
Jack: yeah and you're eating most nights chicken steamed broccoli steamed sweet potato no sauces not too much salt if any salt at all do you know what i mean like it's it comes and and i think you suddenly weeks turns into months months turns into years and you suddenly you i think we just arrived at a point where

00:52:26.10
Gareth Flavell: Fuck.

00:52:33.02
Gareth Flavell: Wow.

00:52:38.52
Jack: i do I do think in in a certain way we were sort of shells of ourselves, I think.

00:52:42.94
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:52:43.32
Jack: um Obviously, like lockdown happened. I think a lot sort of changed for everybody during lockdown. um So in a way that kind of gave us a little window to – because all this stuff was kind of going on in the background at that point, right?

00:52:56.81
Jack: um And you just – you do eventually arrive at a point where you're like – I don't know if it's like the elephant in the room. Nobody wants to talk about it, but then you're like, well, we're both going to have to get, is one of us infertile?

00:53:11.19
Jack: Is that, is that, because you almost don't want to accept that as a, as a, as a reality.

00:53:11.29
Gareth Flavell: Right.

00:53:14.39
Gareth Flavell: Absolutely. And that's for either of you. Like, you know, that that kind of male ego is like, oh God, you know, I'm not, you know, it can't be me.

00:53:18.04
Jack: Yeah. Yeah.

00:53:23.61
Gareth Flavell: But again, you know, for on the lady side, what can, you know, one can only assume that she, you know, you don't want it to be yourself. That's the the kind of blocker in this.

00:53:34.40
Gareth Flavell: So did you just, both decide, right, we'll just get tested together. and

00:53:40.65
Jack: Basically, yeah. So you start the you start the process, you just tell the GP, you know, we're struggling to conceive. um And they go through all the different, do you do this?

00:53:50.82
Jack: Have you done that? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All the stuff where you're like, believe me, ah we've we've we've gone through all these hoops.

00:53:56.74
Gareth Flavell: we've We've done doggy style.

00:53:57.77
Jack: Yeah. Yeah.

00:53:58.34
Gareth Flavell: Come on, on to the next one. We've been through the Kama Sutra, every position.

00:54:00.54
Jack: oh yeah

00:54:03.06
Gareth Flavell: The wheelbarrow is hard, but, you know,

00:54:04.44
Jack: Yeah. Exactly, right. And… um they they They do these tests and like, you know, there's, as I'm sure many other people will will i think too, they'll they'll both be like, well, neither of you are infertile.

00:54:20.11
Jack: And it's what they call unexplained infertility in the respect that like, there's just a reason that can't be quite clearly defined as to…

00:54:28.76
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:54:30.52
Jack: why this isn't happening and there's there's there's certain like little like health flags on either of our sides that i think most people would have one varying degree of like different things you know like i've got a bit of a thyroid condition and all this type stuff that can be a contributing factor but in terms of like the actual bare bones biology of it all it's just unexplained infertility it's a bit children of men it seems to be something that's like growing quite a lot with people

00:54:55.38
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah.

00:54:56.57
Jack: And a lot of people speculate, is it because we're having kids later? Is it because of Wi-Fi?

00:55:00.63
Gareth Flavell: Right.

00:55:02.41
Jack: Is it because of pollution? You know, there's there's there's lots of different reasons.

00:55:04.09
Gareth Flavell: Right. Okay. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah

00:55:08.07
Jack: But um yeah, you just, you eventually arrive at a point where they tell you it's there's nothing wrong, so carry on.

00:55:18.84
Jack: um And, you know keep on with the science, keep on with the like, you know, windows and all that type of stuff. But then again, you know, another sort of few months, maybe another year passes.

00:55:34.01
Jack: And now I'm looking at, I've suddenly gone from being, getting married in my like early 30s, you know, 32, 33 or whatever, 40s over the hill now.

00:55:46.20
Jack: you know i mean? Suddenly, all of a sudden, like life goes and and your head goes to this place of like,

00:55:47.43
Gareth Flavell: Fuck, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:55:52.70
Jack: So when I'm, when they're 10, I'm this. And when I, do you know i mean?

00:55:55.93
Gareth Flavell: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:55:57.28
Jack: How long will I be alive for them?

00:55:57.91
Gareth Flavell: 100%, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:55:59.56
Jack: Like, do you know that type of thing? You know? So there's that part me where, you know, I think we both sort of arrived at this point where it's like, if, if we want to have kids, it's going to have to be RVF because we can't, we can't live our lives like this anymore.

00:56:13.62
Gareth Flavell: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:15.96
Jack: You know, this is being sort of beholden to this type of thing is, uh, is you know not pleasant for anybody and if you know we have to have serious conversation do how much do we want kids how much do we want it and i think i think it's one of those things where you're presented with the future where you definitely don't have them the pull just the it's like it's like a gun to your head you know tell us tell us what you think now

00:56:27.80
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:56:35.83
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. Yeah.

00:56:40.38
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

00:56:44.48
Jack: want to have them gentlemen i want to have kids if i'm giving if i'm giving a red or black option on this roulette i want to have them you know and i think we both we we both landed there and uh then began the the journey mostly for charlotte i've got to say to be fair you know we get off we get off pretty lightly on that side of things right

00:56:45.27
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. Yeah.

00:56:54.60
Gareth Flavell: Father me up. Yeah.

00:57:08.95
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. I mean, ah i i what one would assume it's kind of like the, ah in the most rudimental way of jizzing in a jar and that's that's kind of your job done as long as you've done like the medical bits beforehand.

00:57:26.69
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:57:27.03
Jack: Can I say on on that, but and I know you do have female listeners and stuff and you may have female listeners who have gone through this type of process. So I'm not in any way trying to minimize the impact of having hormones and various other things pumped into your body and what that does to you, right? However…

00:57:44.63
Jack: being in like a room full of people, like medical professionals, nurses, all this type of stuff, who give you a little cup and walk you over to a room where there's like a chair, right?

00:57:49.66
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:57:56.44
Jack: And everybody is waiting for you. you know what I mean? Like you are the…

00:58:01.37
Gareth Flavell: Oh, is it that? Is it like that?

00:58:03.67
Jack: when When you go through the actual process, it has to be like fresh, right? So when they…

00:58:08.25
Gareth Flavell: ah good Lord.

00:58:08.67
Jack: when they so what at the start… that has to go there There's a process of like a woman has to go for all these different sort of types of injections, which essentially means more eggs than usual appear, right?

00:58:23.03
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:58:23.29
Jack: um And then they harvest those. And that means yeah it's ah it's a heavy, heavy, heavy dose of hormones they have to take and be like subjected to. And it's really very unpleasant for them.

00:58:33.65
Jack: and then what happens is on that day they will gather those eggs so that the doctors the you know the embryologists will gather those eggs and then you have to give a fresh sample at that point so while charlotte is there being prodded and all this other unpleasant stuff right i'm there in a room bashing the bishop do know what mean like

00:58:45.27
Gareth Flavell: Right. Yeah.

00:58:52.28
Gareth Flavell: yeah

00:58:57.08
Gareth Flavell: Right, yeah, sweaty mess in the corner of a room.

00:58:59.22
Jack: yeah Yeah, but everyone is like, because you have your own little room with like this. It's like ah a wank throne. you know I mean? It's like a big, like, lazy boy chair.

00:59:05.78
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:59:08.66
Jack: But, mate, the thing is, like, there's all these instructions. There's these bits of paper. There's like a Wi-Fi code. I think we all know why.

00:59:17.34
Gareth Flavell: but yeah yeah yeah

00:59:17.37
Jack: you know what mean? All this type of stuff, right? And you've got your little cup. And there's a part of you where you're like, how am I supposed to aim into that as well?

00:59:25.59
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, sure, yeah.

00:59:26.39
Jack: You know? So what if I ruin this? What if I ruin this whole procedure? Because it's been months getting to this point where these like eggs are there ready to be harvested.

00:59:30.87
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

00:59:36.26
Jack: I've got spring interaction now. if i'm If I'm the weak link in this, if miss or something, you know.

00:59:43.46
Gareth Flavell: I think the the thing that would be playing on my mind is that you've done the job too early.

00:59:49.05
Jack: Yeah.

00:59:49.07
Gareth Flavell: It's like you I come back into the room and they're like, oh, Ricky, have you forgotten something? i'm like, no, no, here's a sample. and Already?

00:59:54.78
Jack: yeah well

00:59:57.10
Gareth Flavell: You've been in there 30 seconds, sir. LAUGHTER LAUGHTER

01:00:03.48
Jack: You got a bit on your jumper as well. um they yeah Well, in in this is as well, the thing is when you finish, right, in in this room that you're in,

01:00:15.93
Jack: there's a little metal hatch on the wall with like a little shelf on it, right?

01:00:20.67
Gareth Flavell: Oh, God.

01:00:21.42
Jack: And what you do is you place your sample on that hatch and then you like close a little door and you press a bell and then you just hear somebody straight away open up the door from the other side and get it.

01:00:32.30
Jack: So there's also that bit of you, you're like, well, you sat there the whole time.

01:00:32.72
Gareth Flavell: Oh, God.

01:00:35.90
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. Oh, God.

01:00:37.34
Jack: Sat there the other side of this, just this little thing, which, yeah.

01:00:37.34
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:00:40.82
Gareth Flavell: It's like a serving hatch at a restaurant.

01:00:41.13
Jack: Yeah.

01:00:42.10
Gareth Flavell: You just press the bell for the dead to be served dinner.

01:00:42.33
Jack: a big ah

01:00:45.71
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:00:46.10
Jack: yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah um it's yeah it look and then from that process on there's a lot more drugs and a lot more monitoring and a lot more scans at various different points to see how things are coming along in the journey but um yeah you know as a dad obviously like i'm not again i'm not taking away from i'm not trying to minimize i'm not trying to act like the hard man or anything like that being a dad in this situation is like or a father to be is uh it's hard it takes an emotional toil there's a lot of like very like you sort of saying ricky i think there's a lot of like we i think men are often like we're a slave to even like sort of more you know people like myself who i like to think of i'm like yeah i'm quite liberal i'm quite a modern man

01:01:34.36
Jack: you realize how prone you are to still like toxic masculinity if you like these feelings of like i'm a failure i'm i'm a failure and i've had to we've had to get to this i'm i'm having to see charlotte get injected with all this stuff that's me that's my failing i've done this you know you know um so you sort of you're grappling with all that type of stuff um

01:01:39.13
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. yeah

01:01:48.29
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

01:01:57.30
Jack: and obviously women are too but they are also having their emotions and everything hyper charged by the cocktail of different stuff that they have to be injected with and it's you know it's it's one of those things i i've always said to charlotte like you know i'll never forget what she went through for us for our family to do that it's

01:02:17.98
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:02:19.03
Jack: you know it i do i do get quite emotional about it when i think about it when i think about the sacrifice she made is you know is amazing um so big up herself

01:02:29.66
Gareth Flavell: So, so, I mean, I can, I can only, one can only imagine the ah physical and mental exhaustion, um, going through all of that.

01:02:42.07
Gareth Flavell: But then you you know, uh, Charlotte pregnant job done. Dust your hands. that is is it was Was it that quick? Was it that, was it over? Was it like, was it that kind of, um is it that straightforward? Is it that simple?

01:03:02.78
Jack: Well, it's it's it's interesting. So when you are like doing RV, if you get a lot more scans than say somebody who has, I think, I want to say like the first, I don't know, do you remember what when was your first scan 20 weeks?

01:03:16.66
Gareth Flavell: Something like that. but you know Very standard of however many weeks and then you get the second one.

01:03:17.72
Jack: Yeah.

01:03:22.34
Gareth Flavell: Everything but you know was fine. um So, yeah, it was a very kind of non-eventful. I mean, obviously it was eventful for me having a job, but…

01:03:32.57
Jack: yeah of course, of course, of course.

01:03:33.84
Gareth Flavell: you know, there was there was nothing untoward or there was no scare or there was, there wasn't anything that they were scratching their chin about as to say, oh, you might, you know, it might be a breach or it might be this, that, the other.

01:03:34.44
Jack: Yeah.

01:03:48.15
Jack: Yeah, so ah you you you do get, yeah, I think you have more scans or new and IVF. think we had one maybe every four weeks or so in the in the early stages of it.

01:03:59.00
Gareth Flavell: Okay.

01:03:59.09
Jack: um And then I think that no, I think everybody has a 16 week. Yeah, everyone has a 16 week scan, which is when they scan for um Edwards, Patow and Down syndrome.

01:04:12.70
Jack: um

01:04:12.92
Gareth Flavell: Yes. ah Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember, actually, yeah.

01:04:16.28
Jack: So obviously we had our first few scans and, you know, the little prawn, as we called it, is coming along nicely. Everything's all good. And then, yeah, and then you get to sort of 16 weeks and you sort of, you know, you know you know you're going to have like this scan, the – I can't remember what the –

01:04:23.68
Gareth Flavell: Job done. Lovely.

01:04:33.87
Jack: there's ah there's an actual, there's a specific term for it, which has left my memory now, um for the 16-week scan, but it's is searching for those things. it's searching for, um you know, a baby with, say, any genetic issues and stuff. And in this next section, apologies if my language is clunky on this. It's hard. It's an emotional subject, right?

01:04:54.89
Jack: I'm not a scientist at the end of the day. But we, so it it turned out after the 16-week scan, with our baby at the point, and I won't use his name because we didn't know he was a ah boy at this point, um but he, they,

01:05:12.22
Jack: they said there was going to be a ah very, very high chance that he had Down syndrome. um And this was because he had, so there's a large collection of fluid that they can see.

01:05:17.69
Gareth Flavell: Right. Okay.

01:05:23.66
Jack: i think there's various different reasons. There's various different factors, but one of the physical visible things in a, in a, in a fetus in a small baby is just like a large pocket of like fluid at the back of the head, at the back of the neck.

01:05:26.49
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:05:35.35
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:05:36.22
Jack: um I think it's called the nuclear fault. And they, they measure that. Um, and when and it's not it's not a cast iron guarantee by any stretch of the imagination some people are told that their kids are going to have down syndrome and they don't when they're born um but you know they they told you and they told us in a very matter-of-fact way the the woman actually told us like was quite she's just kind of like okay well yeah there's like a 90 something percent chance that the baby's gonna have down syndrome we're like

01:06:05.62
Gareth Flavell: Right. Okay.

01:06:06.55
Jack: okay, you know, and it's all just delivered very matter of fact, they give you the little printout and you go across into the next room. and there's also that there's that bit of you where you're like, have like, hang on, Jeremy, you just sort of it's got catch up with you a bit as in like, what's what?

01:06:19.13
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. course. Of course.

01:06:20.57
Jack: well

01:06:20.97
Gareth Flavell: lots lots to take.

01:06:22.74
Jack: Yeah, what's going to happen? And you know, for my own ignorance at this point, you know, in my head, I'm like, all I've ever heard is like the bad stuff, right? All you've ever heard is life limiting,

01:06:37.78
Jack: the amount of like things that can happen to the baby or these terrible sort of different things is society going to accept them i see how horrible people are online i see probably the horrible jokes i've made in my i'm not going to hide away from that the horrible jokes i've made in passing or here and there and everything right everyone does it everyone sort of says things and you know your head goes to all these different places and you see all these horror stories online what what i can say is so we were we were looked after by the royal surrey who looked after us through this whole process impeccably i mean if anyone listens to this who works at the the royal surrey hospital or anything like that in guildford they were wonderful they were lovely some people i hear who when they get the news that they've been told they they're going to have a down syndrome child are basically just straight away ushered into so we can terminate on this date, that date.

01:06:49.37
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. yeah

01:07:28.77
Jack: We never had anything like that. We were always told our what our options were. We'd be fully supported by the hospital, whatever we chose to do. And, you know, it this we do have a ah conversation to have.

01:07:43.22
Jack: you know yeah i'm not um Again, I'm not going to shy away from this. you i I understand it's ah you know it's a very emotional and it's a very sort of heavily fraught topic.

01:07:47.65
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:07:53.58
Jack: And I understand that to some people, the idea that we would even consider terminating the baby is very painful to hear. But, it you know, and it's it's not that it was like, yeah, we we're we're going to do that, but…

01:08:00.00
Gareth Flavell: Hmm.

01:08:07.51
Jack: we, you know, you think like, what do you want to do? And i think I think Charlotte went out for the day and just wanted to sort gather her thoughts and everything. And I sort of like, you know, went out for a walk and was just really thinking to myself, like, you know, know, this is a, it's a long road to go down and all this type of stuff. But I think we both just arrived at this point of like, you know, number one, like this has been a long road for us.

01:08:34.97
Jack: um

01:08:40.22
Jack: it's it's it's difficult. It's difficult to consider like ending it ourselves. And then I guess there's that part of us where we're thinking, well, what what are we saying personally by doing this?

01:08:44.41
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:08:50.57
Jack: Like, you know, and like, do i do I see that like disabled people don't have a right to live, to exist?

01:09:01.02
Jack: No, I don't.

01:09:01.05
Gareth Flavell: yeah

01:09:01.74
Jack: You know, like i don't I don't have that. So I can't in good faith say like, why did I do that? that was my fit. And it's not entirely, it's difficult. This is this is, this is such a difficult topic because it's very, very personal and people get very upset about this type of thing.

01:09:17.50
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:09:18.23
Jack: And I understand there's, there's, there are, of yeah cases like you know there's there's a sliding scale right of how badly he somebody can be affected or not um and i think in some ways that's the the the science is still out on that but let's just say people can be affected by things in different ways not everybody's outlook is the same right from the point at which they're born so

01:09:31.64
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:09:43.86
Gareth Flavell: yeah

01:09:46.87
Jack: people's lives can be short, very painful, very unhappy if they pursue down, if their parents go down this route, but other people can live full, fulfilling, wonderful lives and bring a lot of joy and happiness into other people's lives. So,

01:10:03.42
Jack: I think that's just sort of what we decided to focus on and yeah, cracked on from there. It didn't, it didn't take a lot. do you know what mean? it didn't take a lot for us to, to, to, to go ahead of it. That's what we, you know, that's what we wanted to do.

01:10:17.37
Gareth Flavell: right okay i mean oh mate i can only what you know what gonna say i can only imagine i can't imagine i absolutely can't um that must have been incredibly hard for both of you, for all of you. Um,

01:10:37.62
Gareth Flavell: but you kind of, uh, you see, you know, you've arrived at the point of, uh, knowing you've arrived at the point of let's go, let's, let's, you know, let's go ahead.

01:10:50.49
Gareth Flavell: um And then we kind of, uh, just preparing then from then on in reading, researching, going through everything, um doing everything that you possibly could to equip yourself with knowing that you were, you know, educated and armed with with everything.

01:11:01.52
Jack: Yep.

01:11:14.87
Gareth Flavell: um and then. From then on in was it just kind of a straightforward pregnancy and, you know got to kind of date and stuff like that?

01:11:29.24
Jack: No, unfortunately not, mate. So, yeah, like you say, yeah there's lots of researching, bought lots of books, lots of, you know, soul searching in a way of like, you know, look i think one of one of the main themes that came out from a lot of the research is like being a parent is hard, right?

01:11:45.65
Jack: what What people are going to tell you is being the parent of a Down syndrome child is hard. But what they don't tell you and what people don't focus on is being a parent is hard in any way, right?

01:11:53.88
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah.

01:11:54.02
Jack: Yeah. there's also plenty of things that these scans do not pick up on. You know, there's, there's, there's Down syndrome isn't the only potential disability that your child could have and be born with.

01:11:58.97
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:12:05.44
Jack: It's just the only one that they seem to, well, and ah Edwards and Patel syndrome are the only ones that right now people seem to be able to scan for as, as sort of openly as they do. um and even on, you know, even on emotion of, do you ever see the film peanut butter Falcon, the Sheila Booth film with, uh,

01:12:21.24
Gareth Flavell: No, no, no.

01:12:22.70
Jack: it's It's like a sort of road trippy film with like Shia LaBeouf and he like becomes friends with this like Down syndrome lad that's escaped from like the old people's home that he was put in because his local authority didn't have a specialist place for him to live and his family didn't want him. So he lives in this old people's home that he escapes from and Shia LaBeouf is this kind of like…

01:12:45.50
Jack: bad lad, not vagrant, but he's just sort of like, you know of no fixed abode sort of lad that's just doing what he does. They go on this journey to together.

01:12:53.11
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. Yeah.

01:12:54.26
Jack: So even on an emotional level, you're like, okay, some of the themes from this are nice and it shows you that, you know, people with Down syndrome are there to be helped, but can also help us. They're they're a valuable member of society.

01:13:06.19
Jack: They they they exist, you know.

01:13:08.18
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:13:08.78
Jack: There's this this' this whole sort of, you know, rhetoric around it that they're somehow like, a mistake but they they continue to happen like they exist they're you know they're just ah person that is born in a different way to to us or whatever um so get to that point and then we're coming up to the

01:13:17.66
Gareth Flavell: yeah

01:13:26.99
Jack: when as soon as we found out he had down syndrome they did like after the 12 or 16 week scan we had another follow-up scan where they look at his heart and stuff a lot of down syndrome kids will have heart issues and things like that they did like a heart scan and they there were a couple of like little things like his heart seemed okay but there were a couple of little things that's uh they sort of flagged and everything like that um but it seemed to be okay it seemed to be that he had like a ah strong sort of heartbeat going forwards um And obviously we didn't know at the time, we only found out after the fact, but well, we did know.

01:14:01.74
Jack: So when you know the placenta that the baby grows alongside, right?

01:14:05.88
Gareth Flavell: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:14:07.19
Jack: When you have a baby that's got Down syndrome, the placenta also has Down syndrome. So, and yeah, because it's like a, it's sort of like an organism.

01:14:13.45
Gareth Flavell: What?

01:14:16.56
Jack: It sort of works alongside the baby, right?

01:14:16.98
Gareth Flavell: Right. che

01:14:20.47
Jack: um And so it seemed it seems to be after the fact we found out that there was like a ah placental failure, which, you know, I think if we'd have been on top of sooner, if other people had recognized sooner, there may have been ways to get around it. um But yeah, we went to our 20-week scan. We were going to find out, you know, if he was a boy or a girl.

01:14:42.87
Jack: And they scanned Charlotte's stomach and there's just a little black… picture on the screen just like you know what mean suddenly no love know we'd seen him wriggling around like a week or two before and then just nothing it's just floating there and she turned it off straight away and was just like oh you know I'm really sorry and you're just like oh fuck you know it suddenly comes to an end you know that whole thing that whole journey is is suddenly like you're not even thinking it it's not even like what do we do now you're just

01:14:50.71
Gareth Flavell: Hmm.

01:14:56.02
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah.

01:15:06.04
Gareth Flavell: Right.

01:15:10.82
Gareth Flavell: jenna Yeah, yeah.

01:15:19.24
Jack: It's complete like shell shock. It's just complete survival mode.

01:15:23.38
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:15:25.33
Jack: you know what mean? Like of, don't You need to try and keep your head somehow.

01:15:31.96
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:15:32.02
Jack: um But it's, ah yeah, yeah. And I mean, look, I'll spare everyone the details afterwards and everything, but it was not it's not a pleasant experience after the fact, you know, especially again for Charlotte from this point on. um And there's a lot of, yeah, lot of, you know,

01:15:52.06
Jack: note to to find out, so we found out he was a little boy when, you know, you're holding your stillborn child in your arms is… is is is something that's probably changed me as a person forever, mate, I'll be honest, you know?

01:16:07.10
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

01:16:07.77
Jack: um

01:16:09.78
Gareth Flavell: I can i can imagine, yeah.

01:16:09.85
Jack: But, yeah. But we had his name, Dylan. We we knew if it was going be a boy, it'd be Dylan. So at least at that point, we knew who he was.

01:16:19.32
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:16:20.41
Jack: And you can sort of grieve at least, you know, in a way.

01:16:25.30
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:16:26.33
Jack: but it's But it's all, you know, because we we sort of started talking about it because you said like, you know, Father's Day and all this. And it's it's kind of weird because from that point you're like, I sort of am a dad, but I'm sort of not, you know.

01:16:37.88
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:16:38.59
Jack: It's it's a it's a weird one, you know.

01:16:40.20
Gareth Flavell: yeah

01:16:42.68
Jack: But, yeah, it was a yeah pretty brutal time and it's – Yeah, it's obviously something that's going to stay with me forever forever. You know, I don't think I'll ever get over it, but, you know.

01:16:55.84
Gareth Flavell: I just, I just wanted to say like, thanks.

01:16:56.13
Jack: mate

01:16:58.50
Gareth Flavell: i know how like incredibly painful that would have been to relive and thanks for sharing it with everyone, man. And obviously, you know, sorry, I can, you know, just sorry for everything that you, that you both went through.

01:17:13.46
Gareth Flavell: Cause I can, you know, man, I keep saying I can only imagine, but I can't, you know, I really cannot. Um, and it must've been, ah very kind of, I can't, you know, i can't even think of the words. I can't even put the words together um to kind of try and explain what it must have been like.

01:17:40.63
Gareth Flavell: But you kind of got to that that point. and And then after um Dylan's passing, were you just… Like, this has been too painful. We're not gonna were we're not going to go through this again. like well right where where we were you at afterwards?

01:18:00.63
Jack: Yeah, I mean, honestly, it's a bit of a blur, really. um It's all a bit of a blur. You're not really doing an awful lot of rational thinking. Again, like I say, I think you're just sort of in survival mode because look you get a bit of you get a bit of time off work. You get, yeah know, i don't know i think I had maybe like a week off work or something. But it's even like, you know, even to the level of like,

01:18:27.96
Jack: Having to explain to like your gaffer at work what's happened. It's just awkward.

01:18:31.35
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:18:31.93
Jack: It's just unpleasant, but you have to. Do know I mean?

01:18:33.91
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:18:34.00
Jack: You've got to dredge it up. Please, boss, can I get a week off of work because my fucking world's just collapsed. Do you know what I mean?

01:18:40.44
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:18:40.99
Jack: It's kind of… and But then you still think, well, I've still got to pay the That's the reality, isn't it? That's life.

01:18:47.89
Gareth Flavell: yeah

01:18:48.11
Jack: You have to – and it's not it's not in that toxic way, but you have to stay strong. You have to, you know, go do as best you can, just put – even if it's just one foot in front of the other. And I think, like, one of the things that, like, Charlotte and I always said is, like, that experience, like, I think it made us a lot stronger as a couple. I think we were really – that not I think I know we were really there for one another um and just sort of took things at our own time and there was never like a pressure from one or the other to feel this way or why are you sad today or because someday the the funny thing about it is and this is this is applicable to any sort of grief right think we can all relate to this is that

01:19:27.96
Jack: Some days you have a week where you're like, I actually feel all right now. I feel okay. And then you might just get that creeping feeling of like, am I a wanker for feeling okay, actually?

01:19:37.52
Gareth Flavell: Right.

01:19:37.55
Jack: Shouldn't I be sad?

01:19:38.42
Gareth Flavell: yeah yay Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:19:38.71
Jack: you know what mean?

01:19:40.18
Gareth Flavell: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:19:41.53
Jack: Or just sometimes out of the blue, you will have this um funny feeling. There are certain shared experiences you know that people have. like And they come from out of nowhere sometimes because I think like one of the things we both had sometimes is like,

01:19:58.01
Jack: because he was gone and I don't know what your subconscious is doing to you. You'd wake up with this anxious feeling of like, where's Dylan? Is he all right? Is he okay? And then you're suddenly like, well, he's not here anymore.

01:20:06.20
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:20:08.34
Jack: You know?

01:20:08.60
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:20:08.74
Jack: And, and I heard Brian Cox, you know, succession, brack ra Brian Cox, Cox,

01:20:13.05
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:20:13.91
Jack: talking about when him and his wife lost their two little twins as well um when they were sort of you know i'm not sure what stage along but they had two little babies that never made it and he said his wife after the fact would be like yeah in the middle of the night he'd hear her searching around the house she'd be like where are the little boys where are they kind of thing and she was like sort of sleepwalking in a i don't know like maybe like a sort of depressed psychosis or something but

01:20:33.56
Gareth Flavell: yeah

01:20:40.27
Jack: It's sort of, it is it's it's a really it's a really strange feeling, but, you know, you just, i don't know. I think, I don't even think we'd sort of really said, again, are we going to try again or anything for quite some time, um at least at least a year.

01:20:54.84
Jack: um But I think we did sort of get to a point where we were like, well, would we be… how would how would we feel if this was the only experience we'd had of this?

01:21:08.41
Jack: Do we want to risk it again?

01:21:10.73
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:21:11.29
Jack: um And I think we just decided, yeah, we we did. Yeah. And there a couple of, yeah, a couple of like little failed attempts along the way, because this is the other thing. ivf we were We were lucky with Dylan in in terms of like, Dylan was the first time we tried it and it worked straight away.

01:21:30.42
Gareth Flavell: yeah

01:21:30.55
Jack: That isn't the case for everybody either. um think we had two failed rounds in between Dylan and our newest little arrival. um But then, yeah, we, I think, yeah,

01:21:46.46
Jack: A year and a bit afterwards, yeah, we found out that Charlotte's pregnant again. And that was nine months of ah rampant anxiety. I'll tell you that, mate, like um through that stage.

01:21:56.85
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:21:58.77
Jack: But yeah, um she's here.

01:22:03.51
Gareth Flavell: So with the, uh, with the new one, but was was that IVF or was that, um, yeah.

01:22:10.68
Jack: She was again, yeah, yeah. i again

01:22:12.01
Gareth Flavell: Okay. Right. So, and yeah.

01:22:15.03
Jack: We just wanted to crack on. what mean? Like, let's just cut to the chase. Let's just do it.

01:22:19.32
Gareth Flavell: Oh yeah, yeah. they're Not losing any more time of being precious about this, that, and the other. Uh, and again, like I can only, you know, explain from male's perspective, ego and stuff like that. Oh yeah. I would just want to, uh,

01:22:34.49
Gareth Flavell: ah just get to the kind of finish line, so to speak, and just to get the pretty yeah to get the process started straight away.

01:22:41.84
Jack: Yeah.

01:22:44.06
Gareth Flavell: so you do you just mentioned that you you do have a little, did you say, what ah I'll say, daughter.

01:22:52.26
Jack: There we go.

01:22:52.44
Gareth Flavell: um How old is your daughter?

01:22:56.41
Jack: She's eight and a bit months, got probably just coming up to nine months now. Probably yeah eight eight months, three weeks, I reckon. Near enough now. so

01:23:05.53
Gareth Flavell: And okay, so how how has it been kind of fair finding your feet as a father within the first year?

01:23:15.97
Jack: I think it's just is's difficult, isn't it, for everybody, but ah look I don't know if it's… how I am as a person. If it's my age, I was just like completely ready for it or this or that.

01:23:28.00
Jack: It's not say it's not without its struggles, but I think just the road we've been down, all of it, I just love it, mate. I love every day, you know, like it, you know, I feel very, very lucky.

01:23:35.86
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:23:40.25
Jack: She was, she was our last free round of IVF as well.

01:23:43.11
Gareth Flavell: Oh, wow, okay.

01:23:43.52
Jack: Um, so the conversation, if, if that hadn't worked, the conversation then would have been, can we afford it? Can we, you know, but yeah, so she's, yeah, I think what's the people call it?

01:23:50.97
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:23:54.42
Jack: a rainbow baby, don't they? Um, that came at the right time, but yeah, so I just, I feel, I feel incredibly lucky every day, mate, because there's, there's plenty of people that have been on the exact same, if not even harder journey than we have that, you know,

01:24:13.20
Jack: don't don't get the happy ending. And it's not to say they don't get, that's that's the wrong way of putting it, but they have to reframe what a happy ending looks like for them. Let's let's put it that way.

01:24:22.68
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:24:24.47
Jack: And… and I feel like when we had conversations about that, I feel like we would have we would have done eventually, um but it would have been it would have been hard.

01:24:32.22
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:24:35.58
Jack: but So that's why you know i just feel feel really lucky. Even the night feeds, the waking up at night and stuff, there's that bit of me. We all have it, that, oh God, for a second, but then I just, in my head, I'm always just like, she's here, you know, and that's it.

01:24:46.10
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:24:51.03
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it I had no struggles with any of it. Only my kind of the anxiety of what's happening.

01:25:04.30
Gareth Flavell: And, you know, someone that you love is going through this insane amount of pain to have a baby and all of that Yeah.

01:25:11.13
Jack: Yeah.

01:25:13.43
Gareth Flavell: um But even, you know, my kids are, what, 13 and 15, and I still have that um gratitude, gratefulness, the ah looking up to the sky, the invisible man of of being blessed.

01:25:34.89
Gareth Flavell: Do you know what mean?

01:25:36.02
Jack: yeah

01:25:36.01
Gareth Flavell: And like you said earlier, that may sound corny,

01:25:37.78
Jack: That's how it feels. No, no, no, that's how it feels.

01:25:40.31
Gareth Flavell: But I couldn't give a shit what anyone thinks. I really couldn't. Because every day, even even when I'm sitting in the house and my daughters have been upstairs, scrolling fucking TikTok or whatever for an hour and I haven't seen her and I go up there and I'm not put my head around the door just to say hello or just to kind of be near them even if they're dad shut the door like why you blah blah blah just to kind of have that um that connection and that um just to be near them really it's it is uh

01:26:15.32
Gareth Flavell: it is crazy how it's taken, you know, it takes over your life with it. Like before we, before we finish, is there anything that, um, you've been surprised about fatherhood that you kind of like you, you know, you've been through an insane amount leading up to it.

01:26:34.68
Gareth Flavell: um Was there anything that we can all read books and have your parents tell you, Jack, you must burp your, you know, your daughter like this and don't give them any food of when, or like how you kind of um carry yourself out.

01:26:50.47
Jack: wipe their bum front to back.

01:26:51.86
Gareth Flavell: Yes, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:26:52.09
Jack: Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:26:54.38
Gareth Flavell: All of that stuff. Is there anything that you've, um that you, that surprised you? Or is there anything that now that, now that little one's here, you had this kind of

01:27:10.23
Gareth Flavell: impression that you're going to be this, strict educational father or you're going to be this jolly uh always being silly father or do you know what i mean like have have you have you changed in the way that your your thought processes or or as you're kind of going through how you've ah molded yourself differently as to be like i want to be this type of dad you know how's that journey been

01:27:23.10
Jack: yeah i don't know your mean

01:27:38.92
Jack: if you know what i mean like the first when she was first here the first few weeks or so I just sort of you're almost just like she is a baby, just a baby. It's almost like you're I don't know, it took me maybe like maybe even like a month, three weeks a month to be like, Oh, I'm actually I am actually her dad.

01:27:59.86
Jack: Do you know? i Do you know what mean?

01:28:00.60
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:28:01.18
Jack: Like, i I am someone's dad. Like, the way I look up to my parents, I am that to somebody else.

01:28:04.13
Gareth Flavell: yeah yeah

01:28:07.26
Jack: Now you're saying like Oh, shit. Yeah.

01:28:09.82
Gareth Flavell: Mate, I still do that now.

01:28:10.49
Jack: Yeah.

01:28:11.96
Gareth Flavell: i still do that.

01:28:12.18
Jack: Yeah.

01:28:13.48
Gareth Flavell: Like knowing that I am a dad, uh, and there are times where I'm like, I say to myself, like I am like, I am a 43 year old dad.

01:28:24.09
Gareth Flavell: Like, not and I just, it breaks my mind still that I've not shifted from this 20 year old digging about.

01:28:25.07
Jack: Hmm.

01:28:32.02
Gareth Flavell: And yet I've got these kids, uh, dependent on me. um But I kind of like where, ah you know, when I was younger and um and the girls were growing up and I, do you know what?

01:28:46.52
Gareth Flavell: I don't even think I had that thought process as to say, line in the sand, I'm going to be this dad. ah kind of just was, had memories and thoughts and feelings and what I'd observed as to say,

01:29:07.90
Gareth Flavell: i didn't quite like that parenting style or the way that the neighbor spoke to their daughter or the teacher spoke to that little boy over there i don't want to make my kids feel that way or

01:29:14.81
Jack: Yeah.

01:29:23.70
Gareth Flavell: if my daughter had aspirations for something for me to be like, Oh, don't be so silly. Don't do that. Uh, and I've, I've done that, but I've caught myself and been like, no, what am I doing?

01:29:39.11
Gareth Flavell: do you know what i mean? It's like, um, there is,

01:29:40.50
Jack: <unk> there's ah There's a balance in that. Like you say, you want you want to push them to be their best selves, but you don't want be the pushy dad.

01:29:48.31
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, and I think you evolve as a parent as to what you feel or what you thought was the way to do things and then kind of finding out about their little personality and all these different things in the way that you can be the best ah father that you can be.

01:30:06.82
Gareth Flavell: It's, um yeah, it's really interesting.

01:30:10.65
Jack: Because that I guess that is, and that's going to be the the journey, one because right now, you know, it's sort of a blank canvas, isn't it? And i can think all I like, you know, oh, well, when she gets to this age, I'll take her down the park and we can play football or I'll show her these films at this point.

01:30:26.74
Jack: I'll bring in her like film education and then I'll take her to Spurs when she's this age and all that sort of thing, right?

01:30:29.18
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:30:32.86
Jack: when they like you say ultimately they are their own person and i i think the main thing that i want to and this is a bit of a sort uh again it's another corny point but i i think ultimately i want to just try and remember the fact that

01:30:37.75
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:30:53.40
Jack: I'm home for her. I want her to feel safe.

01:30:55.14
Gareth Flavell: Mm.

01:30:56.63
Jack: I want her to, and not even in like an ego way. I want her to have somewhere nice. ah So this is there's this old like BBC, ah like BBC archive. It's one of best things on the internet. I love it, man. And they would just put out all these random, like, you know, like on the the local news and stuff when it would be like,

01:31:14.25
Jack: they went to a bakery in Skegness to see this giant pie somebody's built or something.

01:31:20.25
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:31:20.29
Jack: They've got little clips like that, but it's like from the 60s, one from the 70s, one this. You can see all these different things on the BBC archive, these amazing little things. And there was one story when I think it was like from the BBC in the 1950s it was the or it was the nineteen sixty s but they had like some old women on then. And so they it's it's funny, this but this bridge in time where old women in like the 50s and 60s could remember a Victorian Christmas.

01:31:52.22
Jack: Do you know what I mean? so they were yeah so So they were talking to these old ladies about like, what was a Victorian Christmas like?

01:31:52.73
Gareth Flavell: Oh wow, fucking hell, yeah hey yeah yeah.

01:31:58.21
Jack: What was it like for you growing up as little girls? you know Because we see the Charles Dickens um depiction of it all. And they were kind of like, you know, it was this, it was that.

01:32:04.89
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:32:06.82
Jack: It was a lot harder. We didn't really have many presents, but… they they were saying that like, I remember this one old lady saying i she had this enduring memory. And this is a little a woman in her 80s, saying, and you could see her face lighting up as she spoke about it.

01:32:20.97
Jack: She was just saying, I remember the the happiest memory I would have is ah when it be around Christmas time, know, my father would have always saved up a bit of money so we'd always have a log fire going all all throughout the winter and he would come back from know his job whatever he was doing on on like christmas eve and he had this like brown paper bag with tangerines in it which then Do you know what i mean?

01:32:46.06
Jack: was like ah a thing.

01:32:46.42
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah.

01:32:47.34
Jack: And do you remember he he gave out a tangerine to everybody and they were just eating it and they just felt so happy. And she was just so like, you know, my father always, my mum and my dad wanted to make it such a lovely time for me.

01:32:58.78
Jack: And still even at this age, I can sort of, escape into those memories and be happy.

01:33:03.83
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. Yeah.

01:33:04.79
Jack: And you're kind of like, that's that's what I want to be.

01:33:06.81
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:33:06.83
Jack: That's what you want to be. You want to be something that somebody that can provide some source of happiness, comfort to another person.

01:33:13.30
Gareth Flavell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:33:14.87
Jack: And that's, but that's not just your kids. It's sort of, it makes you think that's what i want to do more in the world in general.

01:33:21.08
Gareth Flavell: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:33:23.32
Jack: um So yeah, that's, I guess that's sort of, be So I'm getting people who have listened to me rant and rave about Spurs mate for the past 10 years.

01:33:31.99
Gareth Flavell: ah

01:33:34.34
Jack: Then this like proper soppy melty side of me, aren't they today?

01:33:37.27
Gareth Flavell: Yeah.

01:33:37.68
Jack: Jesus.

01:33:38.66
Gareth Flavell: Tangerine for everyone.

01:33:40.00
Jack: Yeah. You boy, what day is it? 12th of June. I'm like, I'm a dungereen.

01:33:46.58
Gareth Flavell: ah ah ah Right. I think that is a good place to leave that there. um that has been That has been an amazing conversation, mate.

01:33:59.02
Gareth Flavell: And um again, i just want to say thank you for ah being really open and honest. And I don't know that there'll be people listening to going through the same or similar kind of journey and that you've been on.

01:34:11.82
Gareth Flavell: Um, and I think it really helps for people to, to talk about this stuff. And even though we're fucking absolute geezers, proper lads, lads, that, um, that we're, you know, that we can actually have these conversations.

01:34:22.81
Jack: enjoy

01:34:27.92
Gareth Flavell: So it's been, it's been great ah chatting with you about it. Um, I was going to do a something only, you know, ah but ah ah we've been running for fucking ages and I'm really sorry about that.

01:34:39.22
Gareth Flavell: Um,

01:34:39.98
Jack: That's me, it's my fault.

01:34:41.20
Gareth Flavell: No, no, no, it's good. And i think I think what I'm going to do is, i will kind of end the pod shortly, but I do want to say the topic for next week is going to be about dreams. So dreams, dreaming, daydreams, what happens when we dream?

01:35:01.82
Gareth Flavell: What does it all mean? ah Dreaming is one of the biggest unsolved mysteries in the neuroscience, in neuroscience. And ah next week you'll be able to hear Flav and get to the bottom of it and what we think dreaming is.

01:35:15.90
Gareth Flavell: ah We want to hear from you guys always. So we want to hear your worst dreams, recurring dreams, the nice dreams, day terrors, all of that stuff. Now, originally, when I first started thinking about this, doing this pod, was like, is there going to be enough there?

01:35:33.53
Gareth Flavell: And I went into the lads patron discord and I said, thinking about doing this topic. And I didn't think I'd get the response that I did where everybody was very forthcoming and telling me about their dream experiences. So the lads patron, thank you very much. This one's on you guys. ah If you want to become part of the lads patron,

01:35:54.30
Gareth Flavell: go to patron.com lads, a non pod, come join the discord, come watch Jack and I do this video pod and listen to the pods ad free before everybody else on the Friday. um and I just want to say again, thank you to Jack for joining us.

01:36:16.34
Gareth Flavell: And as we, as we'd say with all of the, you know, and anyone that comes on, where can people find you to, to hear more of your pearls of wisdom?

01:36:16.62
Jack: Thank you, mate.

01:36:29.43
Jack: If people want to hear any of my pearls of wisdom, you can listen to me on Rule the Roost podcast, which is a Tottenham Hotspur podcast. um But I'm also, yeah, I tweet and use Blue Sky.

01:36:44.06
Jack: So you'll probably, you'll get a more shit, if you want, if you like shitposting and people winding up Arsenal fans, go to Trunk on Twitter. If you like perhaps more melty, more considered side of myself,

01:36:56.31
Jack: blue sky go there um same ted trunk

01:36:58.01
Gareth Flavell: and And ah for for people that ah obviously don't aren't in the Tottenham sphere, because there are people that listen, how are you spelling to trunk?

01:37:07.93
Jack: t-e-h-t-r-u-n-k and can i just plug one thing at the very end as well here ricky

01:37:14.07
Gareth Flavell: Absolutely. course you can.

01:37:16.18
Jack: So um obviously, yeah you know, you've heard my story about Dylan every year on what would have been his full term birthday um in July, i do a bike ride.

01:37:27.08
Jack: So I go from Guildford along the and this is intentional before anyone tries to get funny. I go along the Downs link, which is it basically takes you from guildford down to shore and by sea um and once i'm there i cycle across to b brian so i cycle from guildford to brighton along the downs link i raise money for the dance syndrome research fund uk which are looking to help people with down syndrome to basically make their lives easier and look into scientific ways in which that can be done um so yeah if uh if you come to my twitter page or anything like that you'll see a link to to donate there and um yeah see me on my way in the saddle but thank you very much ricky thanks for giving me the uh opportunity to talk about all that as well i hope i haven't really upset anybody or anything

01:38:13.82
Gareth Flavell: No, no, it's my pleasure. ah Obviously, we will put Jack's link in the podcast description. And when we tweet this out, when it goes out to everyone on the Monday, we'll put a link in so you can find. Give generously. um Jack, it's been an absolute fucking pleasure, mate.

01:38:37.08
Jack: and do you mate thank you i enjoy the show all time and yeah basically like i say ricky i'd listen to you on the toilet so um you know love it keep keep doing what you're

01:38:43.70
Gareth Flavell: ah God bless you, mate. Nice one.